SESSION OF OCTOBER 2, 1884. The Conference met pursuant to adjournment in the Diplomatic Hall of the Department of State, at one o'clock p. m. Present: Austria-Hungary: Baron Ignatz von SchÆffer. Brazil: Dr. Luiz Cruls. Colombia: Commodore S. R. Franklin. Costa Rica: Mr. Juan Francisco Echeverria. France: Mr. A. Lefaivre, Mr. Janssen. Germany: Baron H. von Alvensleben, Mr. Hinckeldeyn. Great Britain: Sir F. J. O. Evans, Prof. J. C. Adams, Lieut.-General Strachey, Mr. Sandford Fleming. Guatemala: Mr. Miles Rock. Hawaii: Hon. W. D. Alexander, Hon. Luther Aholo. Italy: Count Albert de Foresta. Japan: Professor Kikuchi. Mexico: Mr. Leandro Fernandez, Mr. Ansel Anguiano. Paraguay: Capt. John Stewart. Russia: Mr. C. de Struve, Major-General Stebnitzki, Mr. Kologrivoff. San Domingo: Mr. de J. Galvan. Salvador: Mr. Antonio Batres. Spain: Mr. Juan Valera, Mr. Emilio Ruiz del Arbol, and Mr. Juan Pastorin. Sweden: Count Carl Lewenhaupt. Switzerland: Col. Emile Frey, Professor Hirsch. United States: Rear-Admiral C. R. P. Rodgers, Mr. Lewis M. Rutherford, Mr. W. F. Allen, Commander W. T. Sampson, Professor Cleveland Abbe. Venezuela: SeÑor Dr. A. M. Soteldo. Absent: Chili: Mr. F. V. Gormas and Mr. A. B. Tupper. Denmark: Mr. O. S. A. de Bille. Liberia: Mr. Wm. Coppinger. Netherlands: Mr. G. de Weckherlin. Turkey: Rustem Effendi. The President stated that the first business before the Conference was the election of Secretaries. Mr. de Struve, Delegate of Russia, stated that it was his opinion that it would be very difficult to elect Secretaries by a direct vote, and he proposed that the selection of the Secretaries be left to a Committee to be appointed by the President; that the Committee present the names of the officers selected to the Conference, and that these Secretaries be four in number. Count Lewenhaupt, Delegate of Sweden, stated that it was generally understood among the delegates that Mr. Hirsch, one of the delegates from Switzerland, should be elected a Secretary, as he was a Secretary of the Conference held at Rome, but as he has not yet arrived, he proposed that the Conference elect only three Secretaries to-day. Mr. de Struve, Delegate of Russia, stated that he believed that Mr. Hirsch would soon arrive, and he accepted the amendment just offered. The original motion, as modified by the amendment, was thereupon unanimously agreed to. The Chair appointed the Delegate of Russia, Mr. de Struve, the Delegate from Spain, Mr. Valera, the Delegate from France, Mr. Lefaivre, and the Delegate from Sweden, Count Lewenhaupt, as the Committee to select the Secretaries. The Conference thereupon took a recess, to enable the Committee to consult and report. Upon the reassembling of the Conference, the Delegate of Sweden, Count Lewenhaupt, announced that the Committee The report of the Committee was then unanimously adopted by the Conference, and the Delegates named as Secretaries signified their acceptance of the office. Mr. de Struve, Delegate of Russia, moved that the President direct the Acting Secretary to arrange the seats of the Delegates according to the alphabetical order of the countries represented. He added that it would be a great convenience to the members to have their seats permanently fixed. The motion was unanimously agreed to. Commander Sampson, Delegate of the United States, then presented the following resolution:
General Strachey, Delegate of England, stated that, as he understood this resolution, it would not necessarily authorize the parties invited to take any part in the discussions. The President stated that the resolution seems merely to invite the gentlemen to be present. General Strachey, Delegate of Great Britain, stated that he thought it necessary to clear up this matter a little; that if the gentlemen invited could not address the Conference, it seemed very little use to have them invited; that it was not for their own advantage but for that of the Conference that the invitations were extended to those scientific gentlemen, and therefore he thought it was the intention in inviting them to have the benefit of any information which they might desire from time to time to express on the subjects before the Congress. He thought that if any remarks on the part of these The President inquired whether the Delegate of Great Britain meant that the remarks should be presented in writing. General Strachey, Delegate of Great Britain, replied that that would not necessarily be the case. Prof. Abbe, Delegate of the United States, inquired whether the persons named in the resolution were the only ones to be invited. The President replied that it was so, so far as the Chair was informed, but that it would be in order at any time to add new names in the same way. Prof. Abbe, Delegate of the United States, stated that this was a matter which he had very much at heart, and he would like to observe that some of the nations which were invited to send Delegates to this Conference had failed to do so, and that it would be a courtesy to invite persons of those nations to be present. Commander Sampson, Delegate of the United States, stated that after consulting with a number of the delegates he drew the resolution, and that it was suggested to him this very morning that possibly there might be a difference of opinion as to whether these gentlemen should take part in the discussion, and that that was the reason why the first resolution merely proposed to invite them to be present. He stated that he proposed subsequently to submit another resolution authorizing these gentlemen to take part in the discussion; that he thought that the original intention was to confer an honor on certain distinguished scientists, and that it would be well for the Conference to limit the invitation to gentlemen of that character. Mr. Lefaivre, Delegate of France, stated that he was opposed to the proposition to admit to the deliberations of this The President stated that he understood that the resolution did not propose to confer a vote upon the gentlemen invited, but simply to enable them to lay any information before the Conference which they might have upon the matter at issue. Mr. Lefaivre, Delegate of France, contended that the resolution was intended to authorize these gentlemen to deliberate, and he thought that the inconvenience would be very great of extending this privilege to persons not authorized to represent their Governments. He did not think it was reasonable or fair that his opinions should be questioned or opposed by the opinions of men not authorized to speak for their Governments. Gen. Strachey, Delegate of Great Britain, said that as he had taken upon himself to make some remarks both as to the manner in which the gentlemen should be invited and the extent of their rights when invited, he wished to say that while he agreed with much that had been said by the Delegate of France, he held that these gentlemen should have The President directed that the resolution be read in French, and then put it to the vote, when it was unanimously adopted. Commander Sampson. Delegate of the United States, then offered the following resolution:
Mr. Lefaivre, Delegate for France, then stated that it was not in accordance with the object of this Conference that private individuals, not authorized by their respective Governments, should be permitted to influence the decision of this body, and that, while it was very proper to extend courtesy to such learned gentlemen as were invited, it surely was never intended that they should participate in our proceedings. Gen. Strachey, Delegate of Great Britain, said that it would, perhaps, save trouble if he stated his views on the point under discussion, which he apprehended were generally in accordance with those of the representative from France. He said that, if he were permitted, he would read a resolution, which he suggested might be accepted as a substitute for that pending before the Conference, and it was as follows:
The President inquired in what way they would express it. Gen. Strachey, Delegate of Great Britain, stated that it would be orally. The President replied that the resolution undoubtedly read that way. Gen. Strachey, Delegate of Great Britain, stated that the language, "to take part in the discussion," employed in the resolution of Commander Sampson, would mean that the persons invited would be in a position, of their own motion, either to reply to remarks made, or to state their own views, or to take part in the discussion just as the Delegates are entitled to do. Mr. Lefaivre, Delegate of France, stated that he hoped that the proposition of the Delegate of Great Britain would not be pressed until a vote was had upon the original resolution. The President then put the resolution to a vote; but, being unable to determine from the viva voce vote whether it was carried or not, he stated that the roll would be called. Mr. Frey, Delegate of Switzerland, stated that he thought before the vote was taken a decision should be had upon the question, how the Delegates were to vote—whether as nations or as individuals. The President announced that it had been the custom in all such conferences to vote as nations, each nation casting one vote, and that no other way seemed practicable; and that in conformity with this ruling the roll would be called and the vote taken by nations. The roll was then called, when the following States voted in the affirmative: And the following in the negative:
The President then announced that the ayes were 8 and the noes 13, and that the resolution was lost. Gen. Strachey, Delegate of Great Britain, then renewed his resolution, which was as follows:
No discussion arose upon this resolution, and it was adopted. Commander Sampson, Delegate of the United States, then offered the following resolution:
Mr. Lefaivre, Delegate of France, stated that he considered this a subject of grave importance; that this was an official and confidential body; scientific, it was true, but also diplomatic; that it was empowered to confer about matters with which the general public have now nothing to do; that to admit the public to the meetings would destroy their privacy and subject the Conference to the influence of an outside pressure which might prove very prejudicial to its proceedings, and that he would object to this resolution absolutely. No further discussion being had, the President, after a viva voce vote of doubtful result, ordered the roll to be called, when the following States voted in the affirmative:
And the following States in the negative.
The President then announced that the ayes were 7 and the noes 14, and that the resolution was therefore lost. The President then said that there would doubtless be some preliminary general discussion on the subject before the Conference, and suggested that if Delegates desired to be heard upon the subject it would be expedient to give an intimation to the Secretary. Prof. Abbe, Delegate of the United States, then said: I have been requested to present to the Conference the communication that I hold in my hand, and in doing so wish to offer the following resolution:
Professor Adams, Delegate of Great Britain, said that the Conference should be very cautious in admitting the devices and schemes of people who have no connection with this body; that there are, no doubt, many inventors and many people who have plans and schemes which they wish to press upon the Conference, and that it was probable that the Conference would be subjected to very great inconvenience if they took upon themselves even the burden of acknowledging the receipt of these communications. The President stated that he had received several Communions Mr. Lefaivre, Delegate of France, proposed that the Conference should appoint a committee to examine the different papers submitted by outside parties, and to make such suggestions as they might deem proper after examining the papers. Mr. Valera, Delegate of Spain, said that it seemed to him the proper course of proceeding for the Conference was to take up the subject article by article, and treat it in that order; that there were presented to the Conference certain well-defined propositions, and that besides these there were the resolutions which had been adopted by the Conference at Rome, which could be used as a basis for the discussions of this Conference; that in that way the Delegates would have before them some precise subject-matter, and after discussion, if any proposition needed to be altered or amended it would be in the power of the Conference to do so, but that unless some regular method of proceeding were adopted the sessions would be prolonged indefinitely, and the Conference would be confused by a multitude of irrelevant propositions that might be presented to them. Mr. Rutherfurd, Delegate of the United States, stated that it seemed to him that to invite a general discussion upon the subject, which has undoubtedly a great many heads, the best method would be the one just suggested; that by having a well-defined course much time would be saved, and there would be a precision in the proceedings, which undoubtedly is always valuable; that in this way the discussion could be kept within bounds, but unless there is some proposition pending before the Conference it is impossible to say whether any discussion is in order or out of order; that it seemed to him there should be some well-defined propositions laid before the Conference, and those propositions could easily be gathered, not only from what has gone before, not only from the Conference which has been held in Rome, but from the acts of Congress The President stated that if these communications from outside parties were brought before the Conference it would entail a great deal of labor. The resolution of the Delegate of the United States, Prof. Abbe, was then put to the vote, and was negatived. Mr. Rutherfurd, Delegate of the United States, then presented the following resolution:
Mr. Lefaivre, Delegate of France, remarked that the proposed resolution seemed to him out of order, and that his colleague, Mr. Janssen, desired to address the Conference on the subject. He went on to say: The competence of the Conference can give rise to no long debate among us. Let us remark, in the first place, that no previous engagement exists, on the part of the Governments, to adopt the results of our discussions, and that consequently our decisions cannot be compared to those of a deliberative congress or an international commission acting according to definite powers. We have no definite powers, or rather, we have no executive power, since our decisions cannot be invoked executively by one Government towards others. Does this mean that our decisions will be wholly unauthoritative? An assembly which numbers so many eminent delegates, and in which there is so much scientific knowledge, must certainly be regarded with profound respect by all the Powers of the world. Its powers, however, must be of a wholly moral character, and will have to be balanced against rights and interests no less worthy of consideration, leaving absolutely intact the independence of each individual State. Under these circumstances, gentlemen, it seems to me that This is our mission. It is a great one, and has a lofty international bearing. We must, however, realize its extent from the very outset, and not go beyond its limits. An appeal has been made to the decisions of the Conference held at Rome. But, gentlemen, I beg leave to remark that that Conference was composed entirely of specialists, and that it did not meet for the purpose of examining the question in an international point of view. This Conference is composed of various elements, among which are scientists of the highest standing, but also functionaries of high rank, who are not familiar with scientific subjects, and who are charged with an examination of this question from a political stand-point. It is, moreover, our privilege to be philosophers and cosmopolitans, and to contemplate the interests of mankind not only for the present, but for the most distant future. You see, gentlemen, that we enjoy absolute freedom, and that we are in nowise bound by the decisions of the Conference held at Rome. It is even desirable that those precedents should be appealed to as little as possible, inasmuch as we have scientists among us who are regarded as authorities in both the Old and the New World, and who are perfectly capable of directing us in technical matters, and of furnishing all the information that we can desire. I will say even more than this: The results of the Conference held at Rome are by no means regarded as possessing official authority by the Governments that have accredited us; for if those results had been taken as a starting point, there would be no occasion for our Conference, and our Governments would simply have to decide with regard to the acceptance or rejection of the resolutions adopted by the Geodetic Congress at Rome. Everything, however, is intact, even the scientific side of the question, and that is the reason why we have so many Delegates possessing technical knowledge among us. The President stated that he considered the resolution entirely in order, and likely to bring about a discussion upon the very point for which this Conference was called together; that the resolution was open to any amendment that might be offered, could be altered from time to time if necessary, and, if it did not meet the sense of the Conference, could be defeated. Mr. Lefaivre, Delegate of France, inquired whether this proposition did not demand an immediate solution. Mr. Rutherfurd, Delegate of the United States, replied that no such thing was contemplated. Prof. Janssen, Delegate of France, then spoke as follows: Gentlemen: I formally request that the resolution just proposed by my eminent colleague and friend, Mr. Rutherford, be held in reserve, and that it may not now be pressed for discussion. It is wholly undesirable that a proposition of so grave a character, which forestalls one of the most important resolutions that we shall be called upon to adopt, should be put to the vote while our meeting has scarcely been organized, and before any discussion relative to the true merits of the questions to be considered has taken place. This would be inverting the proper order of things and reaching a conclusion before having examined the subject before us. Before discussing the question of the selection of a meridian which is to serve as a common zero of longitude for all the nations of the world, (if the Congress shall think proper to discuss that point,) it is evident that we must first decide the question of principle which is to govern all our proceedings; that is to say, whether it is desirable to fix upon a common zero of longitude for all nations. I therefore formally ask for the withdrawal of Mr. Rutherford's proposition. The President stated that as something had been said about the Conference at Rome, he desired to say that he had carefully Commander Sampson, Delegate of the United States, stated that he wished to offer the following as a substitute for the resolution already pending:
Mr. Rutherfurd, Delegate of the United States, then announced that he accepted this substitution in place of the first resolution. General Strachey, Delegate of England, stated that if he rightly understood the remarks made by the Delegate of France, Mr. Lefaivre, he thought that it was intended to call attention to the ultimate form in which the resolutions of this Congress should be recorded. He referred to the address which the Secretary of State of the United States (Mr. Frelinghuysen) made to the Delegates on their assembling, in which he said: "You have met to discuss and consider the important question of a prime meridian for all nations. It will rest with you to give a definite result to the preparatory labors of other scientific associations and special congresses, and thus make those labors available." He added that the object at which they should aim was to put together a series of resolutions which could be presented to the various Governments whose representatives are here He continued by saying that he thought that the Delegate from France, Mr. Lefaivre, went a little beyond what was strictly right in saying that we should shut our eyes to what occurred there; that, for his own part, he was obliged to pay attention to what occurred there; that some of the most eminent scientific men to be found in any country met there and fully discussed the questions now before us, and that the Delegates here present were now called upon to revise what occurred there. Mr. Rutherfurd, Delegate of the United States, said that the Delegate from France, Mr. Lefaivre, in his remarks, insisted that we should first establish for what purpose the Delegates were here assembled; that he wished to refer to the circulars sent out by the Government of the United States, under which this Conference was called together. He said that he could assert, He continued by saying that the Secretary of State then sent a second invitation to the different nations to send Delegates, who were to assemble here on the first of October, 1884, for the purpose of establishing a prime meridian and a universal time. He added that it seemed to him a great loss of time to go over the question whether a prime meridian was or was not desirable; that the Delegates were sent here for the purpose of agreeing upon a prime meridian. He then asked why this Conference should lose time in discussing that question. The resolution offered by the Delegate of the United States, Commander Sampson, was then unanimously adopted as follows:
Mr. Rutherfurd, Delegate of the United States, then renewed his original resolution, as follows:
Mr. Janssen, Delegate of France, stated that he wished to Gentlemen: Mr. Lefaivre, my honorable colleague, and I are of the opinion that the mission of this Congress is chiefly to examine questions of principle. I consider that we shall do a very important thing if we proclaim the principle of the adoption of a meridian which shall be the same for all nations. The advantages of such a meridian have been felt by the geographers and navigators of all ages. France might claim the honor of having sought to accomplish this reform as early as the seventeenth century. It is not to be expected, therefore, that France, at this late day, will seek to place any obstacles in the way of the adoption of an improvement which would by this time have been adopted if the use of the meridian which she proposed, and which she had caused to be generally accepted, had been continued. We therefore fully agree with you, gentlemen, as to the principle of a common international meridian, impartially defined and wisely applied, and we think that if the Congress should cause a useful reform, which has been so long expected, to be finally adopted, it would render a great service to the world, and one that would do us the highest honor. This point being gained, is it proper for us to proceed to the adoption of such a meridian? We think not, unless we are assured by a previous declaration as to the principle which is to govern the selection of that meridian. Without such a declaration, we should have no power to begin a discussion on an undefined subject, and we are not authorized to pledge ourselves. I must even add that our acquiescence in the principle of an international meridian could not be maintained if the Congress proceeded to a choice at variance with the exclusively scientific principles which we are instructed to maintain. Thus, in the very interest of the great principle which we all desire to see adopted, it would, to my way of thinking, be wiser to confine ourselves to a general declaration which, by uniting the opinions of all, would sustain the principle with all the authority Mr. Valera, Delegate of Spain, stated that it seemed to him the order of proceeding for this Conference was very well laid down in the invitations addressed by the President of the United States to the different countries and in the articles which were formulated at Rome; that if these were taken up one after the other and discussed there would be a clearly-defined line of action for the Delegates; that if an article was not satisfactory it could be altered or amended, or could be rejected; but if the propositions were taken up one at a time and the discussions directed to these propositions, the Conference would be more likely to reach a definite result than in any general discussion. The President stated that, so far as he understood the proposition, there was no desire to press it to an immediate vote; that it was quite proper for the Delegate from France to offer any other proposition, as suggested by the Delegate of Spain, in lieu of the motion now pending; that so far as the Chair was concerned it seemed to him that the Conference could at once proceed to the discussion of the general subject of a prime meridian under the pending resolution; that if the Delegate from France desires to make any other proposition, or offer anything else in a distinct form, he will be listened to with great attention and with profound respect. Mr. Rutherfurd, Delegate of the United States, remarked that the Delegate from France, his learned friend, Mr. Janssen, had expressed the opinion that the Delegates had not the power to decide upon any particular meridian, but that they were sent here merely to discuss this principle, namely, whether a general meridian was desirable. He added that he was, of course, not in possession of the instructions which the Delegates from France received from their own Government, but that he found among the instructions received by the Delegates of the United States from their Government a copy of one of the
The Delegate of the United States continued by saying that the whole object of this Conference was not to establish the principle that it is desirable to have a prime meridian, but to fix that prime meridian; that that was the object of the meeting, and that it seemed to him that there must be some misapprehension on the part of the learned gentleman from France in thinking that this Conference has not the power to fix upon a prime meridian; that as to our organization, the Delegate of France (Mr. Lefaivre) spoke of its not being sufficiently complete to take up this subject at present, but that it seemed to him that the Delegates undoubtedly were ready to hear and express arguments pro and con in regard to that question; that he supposed that every Delegate had studied this matter before coming here, and that he did not think that any Delegate would be likely to come here unless he knew, or thought he knew, some thing about this matter. Mr. Valera, Delegate from Spain, announced that he had no power to pledge his country on this subject; that his authority merely extended to the power of recommending to his Government such resolutions as this Conference might adopt. Count Lewenhaupt, Delegate of Sweden, then said: "I desire to state in the protocol that I have no power to engage my Government by my votes on the different questions which will be submitted to this Conference, and that, therefore, General Strachey, Delegate of Great Britain, said that in the name of the Delegates of Great Britain he wished to state that they were in the same position, but that would not prevent them or this Conference from forming an opinion and expressing it. The President stated that on behalf of the Delegates from the United States they had no power except that of discussion and recommendation. Mr. de Struve made, on behalf of the Delegates of Russia, a declaration identical with that made by the Delegate of Sweden. Baron von Alvensleben, Delegate from Germany, made the same announcement on behalf of his Government. Mr. Fernandez, Delegate from Mexico, made the same announcement. Mr. Valera, Delegate of Spain, remarked that this Conference was called together not merely to discuss the subject of a prime meridian, but to determine, so far as these Delegates were concerned, the propriety of adopting a particular prime meridian, and that his Government would decide afterwards whether it would accept what this Conference should recommend. Dr. Cruls, Delegate of Brazil, stated that his Government authorized him to take part in the discussion, but not to commit his Government to the adoption of any particular proposition. Mr. Fleming, Delegate of Great Britain, said that he would like to call the attention of the Conference to the language of the act of Congress calling this Conference together, and that language runs as follows:
He added that he thought the object of the Conference clearly was to determine and to recommend; that although the word "recommend" was not used in the body of the resolution, it was certainly understood, and, as a matter of fact, the title of the joint resolution passed by Congress contains the word "recommend." It reads as follows:
Baron von SchÆffer, Delegate of Austria-Hungary, then moved that the Conference adjourn until Monday, the 6th instant, at one o'clock, to enable Delegates to confer on this subject. The proposition of the Delegate of Austria-Hungary was then agreed to, and the Conference adjourned to Monday, October 6, 1884, at 1 o'clock, p. m. |