I shall interpose no objection to that; but I feel it my duty to suggest that it does seem to me that a discussion of that question is premature, and for this reason: there is no information with regard to those gun-boats now before the Senate, except what we derive from the newspapers. I understand that the Department of State will in a few days, as soon as the documents can be copied, communicate to the Senate all that it has with reference to our relations with Cuba, which will probably cover the question of the gun-boats. There is a question of fact and of law, and I for one am indisposed to approach its discussion until I have all the information now in the possession of the Government. At the same time my friend from Wisconsin will understand that I have no disposition to interfere with any desires he may have. If he wishes, therefore, to go on, I shall content myself with the suggestions that I have made.

Mr. President,—The Senator from Wisconsin closed by saying that he understood that eighteen of the gun-boats would leave to-morrow. I have had put into my hands a telegram received last night from New York, which I will read, as it relates to that subject:—

“To-morrow morning” is this morning.

But there are eight other boats, that are still unfinished, on the stocks, to which the resolution of the Senator from Wisconsin is applicable.

I have no disposition now to discuss the great question involved in the speech of the Senator from Wisconsin; but the Senator will pardon me, if I venture to suggest that he has misapprehended the meaning of the statute on which he relies. Certainly he has misapprehended it or I have. He has misapprehended it or the Administration has. I do not conceive that the question which he has presented can arise under the statute. The language on which he relies is as follows:—

The operative words on which the Senator relies being “any colony, district, or people,” I understand the Senator to insist that under these words Spain cannot purchase ships in the United States to cruise against her Cuban subjects now in revolt. That is the position of the Senator. He states it frankly. To that I specifically reply, that the language of the statute is entirely inapplicable. Those words, if the Senator will consult their history, were introduced for a specific purpose. It was to meet the case of the revolted Spanish colonies already for eight years in arms against the parent Government, having ships in every sea, largely possessing the territories on the Spanish main, and with independence nearly achieved.

There was no question of belligerence. It was admitted by all the civilized world. Nation after nation practically recognized it. Our Government, our courts, every department of the Government, recognized the belligerence of those Spanish colonies. Their independence was recognized more tardily, after ample discussion in these two Chambers as late as 1820; but their belligerence was a fact perfectly established and recognized by every branch of the Government. To meet their case, and for no other object, as I understand it, Mr. Miller, a Representative of South Carolina, on the 30th day of December, 1817, introduced the following resolution:—

The important words “any colony, district, or people” were introduced to cover the precise case of the revolted Spanish colonies and their precise condition at that moment, there being no question of belligerence. Now the practical question is, whether these words, introduced originally for a specific purpose, having an historic character beyond question, can be extended so as to be applied to insurgents who have not yet achieved a corporate existence,—who have no provinces, no cities, no towns, no ports, no prize courts. Such is the fact. I cannot supply the fact, if it does not exist; nor can the Senator, with his eloquence and with his ardor enlisted in this cause. We must seek the truth. The truth is found in the actual facts. Now do those facts justify the concession which the Senator requires?

The Cuban insurgents, whatever the inspiration of their action, have not reached the condition of belligerents. Such, I repeat, is the fact, and we cannot alter the fact. Here we must rely upon the evidence, which, according to all the information within my reach, is adverse. They do not come within any of the prerequisites. They have no provinces, no towns, no ports, no prize courts. Without these I am at a loss to see how they can be treated as belligerents by foreign powers. Before this great concession there must be assurance of their capacity to administer justice. Above all, there must be a Prize Court. But nobody pretends that there is any such thing.

Mr. Sumner. The Senator will pardon me, if I say I do not think it is. I think that the better way of ascertaining the facts is to send to our authorized agents in Cuba,—we have consuls at every considerable place,—and direct them to report on the facts. I understand such reports have been received by the Department of State. They will be communicated to the Senate. They are expected day by day, and they are explicit, unless I have been misinformed, on this single point,—that, whatever may be the inspiration of that insurrection, it has not yet reached that condition of maturity, that corporate character, which in point of fact makes it belligerent in character.

Mr. Sumner. The Senator confesses we are in the dark, and on this account I consider the debate premature. We all need information, and I understand it will be supplied by the Department of State. There is information on the precise point to which the Senator calls attention, and that is as to the number of the forces on both sides. I understand on the side of the insurgents it has latterly very much diminished; and I have been told that they are now little more than guerrilleros, and that the war they are carrying on is little more than a guerrilla contest,—that they are not in possession of any town or considerable place. Such is my information.

Mr. Sumner. I understand they have the government that is in a camp. With regard to that the Senator knows as well as I; but that brings us back again to the necessity of information.

Mr. Sumner. I think there is no evidence that there is a legislative body; and I must say I await with great anxiety the evidence of their action on the subject of Slavery itself. What assurance have we that slavery will be terminated by these insurgents? Have they the will? Have they the power? I know the report that they have abolished slavery, but this report leaves much to be desired. I wish it to be authenticated and relieved from all doubt. It is said that there are two decrees,—one to be read at home, and another to be read abroad. Is this true? And even if not true, is there any assurance that the insurrectionists are able to make this decree good? But while I require the surrender of slavery from the insurrectionists, I make the same requirement of Spain. Why has this power delayed?

Mr. Sumner. I am not able to inform the Senator precisely on that point. I do know enough, however, to satisfy me that Spain is a laggard on this question; and if my voice could reach her now, it would plead with her to be quick, to make haste to abolish slavery, not only in Cuba, but in Porto Rico. Its continued existence is a shame, and it should cease.

I have no disposition to go into this subject at length. There is, however, one other remark that the Senator from Wisconsin made to which I shall be justified in replying. He alludes to the case of the Hornet, and the proceedings against that vessel.[190] It is not for me now to vindicate those proceedings. They may have been proper under the statute, or may not; but it is very clear to me that the cases of the Hornet and the Spanish gun-boats are plainly distinguishable, and, if the Senate will pardon me one moment, I will make the distinction, I think, perfectly apparent. We all know that two or three or four or a dozen persons may levy war against the Government, may levy war against the king. A traitor levies war against the king. The king, when he proceeds against the traitor, does not levy war. He simply proceeds in the exercise of his executive functions in order to establish his authority. And in the spirit of this illustration I am disposed to believe that the United States were perfectly justifiable, even under this statute, in arresting the Hornet; but they would not be justifiable in arresting the Spanish gun-boats. The Hornet was levying war against Spain, and therefore subject to arrest. The gun-boats are levying no war, simply because the insurrection against which they are to be used has not reached the condition of war.

Mr. Sumner. Mr. President, I do not regard it as a question of neutrality. Until the belligerence of these people is recognized, they are not of themselves a power, they are not a people. Therefore there can be no neutrality on the part of our Government between Spain and her revolted subjects, until they come up to the condition of a people. They have not reached that point; and therefore I submit that there is at this moment no question of neutrality, and that the argument of the Senator in that respect was inapplicable. When the belligerence of the insurgents is recognized there will be a case for neutrality, and not before.