Concerning the holy Fathers, Councels, Bishops, and common
people, which say that soules do visibly appeare.

THe authoritie of the holie Fathers is obiected against The holy Fathers say that soules appear. Ambrose. Augustine. Gregorie. vs, as that which Saint Ambrose writeth of Saint Agnes, and Saint Augustine of Saint Felix, of which we haue spoken before. And that which Abdias hath in the life of the Apostles, that Thomas appeared after his death and preached. Saint Gregorie in his Dialogues, doth write diuerse and wondrous things, among others he rehearseth many examples of the dead which appeared, and desired helpe of certaine Saintes, yea and of the Apostles themselues, whiche haue visited some vppon their death beddes, a little before they departed, and many other suche lyke matters, which they that list may read themselues. It is saide that Hierome appeared to Saint Augustine.

I will not in this place accuse the holie Fathers of vanitie, yet this we must note, they say not they haue belÉeued that they whiche appeared, were the soules of dead Many things fabulous in Gregories Dialogues. men, but they spake after the common manner. As touching S. Gregories Dialogues, I cannot hide, this (which many haue noted before mee) that many things are conteined in them that are nothing true, but altogither like old wives tales. Not because the holie Father hath written these things of malice, but for that he being too too credulous, hath put many things into his bookes, rather vppon other mens report, than that he himselfe knew them certainly to be true.

At this day also there are many honest and godlie men which haue this faulte, that they are too quicke of belÉefe, and altogither ruled by others. They iudge other men by themselues, they would be ashamed to reporte any thing that were false, and thinke suche men in like manner to be affectioned, which doe abuse their simplicitie and goodnesse. Oftentimes these men, through their too muche lightnesse of belÉefe, fall into great daungers.

Moreouer, in that age wherin Gregorie liued, men began to attribute much to those apparances and visions. And at that time the true and sincere Doctrine began greatly to decay. Truly the time in which a man happens to liue, is much to be regarded: he himselfe confessed that his times was the latter times. Therefore the Scriptures shoulde haue bÉene more diligently lent vnto, neither should any thing haue bene retained that was not agrÉeable vnto them. Some going about to excuse him, for that he hath stuffed his Dialogues ful of miracles and wonders, say he did it to mollifie by those examples, the peruerse and hard hearts of the Longobardes, to the end they might embrace the true Religion, which they had so greeuously persecuted. But that it is in no wise profitable to make knowen the true faith, by these helpes which are nothing else but vaine tales, euen Viues himselfe, in his first booke De tradendis disciplinis doth acknowledge.

Some vrge vs with the authoritie of counsels, which haue allowed certain apparances of soules, and haue suffered some bookes, whiche are extant of such apparitions, to be read for the edifying of the simple, and some againe togither with their visions, they haue cleane reiected.

It is reported that the Counsell of Constance, hath allowed this vision:

A certaine Deane when he had giuen ouer his Deanrie, went into the Wildernesse to doe penaunce: after his deathe he appeared to his Bishop, and tolde him that the same houre in which he departed this life, there died thirtie thousand men, among whome only his soule and S. Barnarde were made partakers of eternall saluation, and thrÉe went into Purgatorie, and all the rest into endlesse damnation. &c. They say that Councels & the churche cannot erre, because they are guided by the holy Ghost. Matth.24. Also in the 24. of Matthew, the Lord doth say in the later dayes there shalbe signes and wonders, that the very elect if it were possible might be seduced, therefore they conclude those things which Councels do saye of such apparitions, are to be belÉeued. Christs words are not so to be vnderstood that the chosen can neuer be broughte into errors (for the contrary may be shewed by many examples) but that they do not abide in erroure, albeit some do very hardly get out of the same againe. Tell me, I pray you, who they were that came togither in auncient Councels? were they not holy fathers? It is manifest that in many points they were at variaunce among themselues, and that they haue shewed by their contrary writings: yea and many times they are contrary to themselues, and therfore they haue not alwaies thought aright. Sometime they send vs to the word of God, as to the most certaine rule and leauell of faith. There are examples inough, by which it may be shewed, that the old Councelles haue erred in some of their determinations. The Councell of Ariminum hath allowed the Arrians doctrine. The second Ephesin councell did subscribe to Eutiches. The Councell holden at Carthage, which Cipria gathered, pronounced flatly against the scriptures, &c. What shall we say was done in latter times? It is well inough knowen by histories who hath resisted Councels, and ruled them, and what hath bene chiefly handled in them for certaine hundred yeares: And what for the most parte hath by and by followed after them, euen cruel warres and bloudy slaughters. If nowe those auncient Councels coulde erre, who will maruaile that they which haue assembled since haue erred? But as touching the apparitions, that I may (all other things omitted) talke only of them, tell me I pray you who should certifie the Councels, whether this or that vision were true or false? Certainly no Councels can bring to passe that the lyes which haue bene scattered abroade, shall now begin to be true tales, although they of the Councel haue saide they are true.

It is euen as foolishe to say, the Pope (who wil be counted aboue all Councels) hath confirmed this or that miracle to be true, which they say was wrought in some one monasterie or other. How can the bishop of Rome being so far off, knowe any thing better than they which dwell in the same places? If the bishop hauing no other assuraunce than out of their words or writings, which perhaps go about to erecte newe pilgrimages, and newe deuises to get money, confirme once that this or that soule was sÉene, it must straight way without any gaynsaying be belÉeued. But if any other men who haue with diligence sought out the truth of the matter, do testifie the contrary: al that they say must not be regarded. Consider (I besÉeche you) of this matter. Before, all haue doubted whether the thing were so or no, but assoone as the Pope doth giue his verdicte, or some Church man do in his dreame sÉe it to be so, it is a heynouse matter afterwards to doubt of it. O time! O manners!

As touching other common and lay men as they terme them, which say they haue sÉene one after his death, and haue heard and knowne him, and haue spoken with him: I easily graunt they haue sÉene and heard some thing, and haue thought verily they were soules, and that they did speake with them. But it followeth not therfore, that they were soules indÉede, much lesse that any dead man hath appeared in bodie & soule vnto them. For at doomes day only, the soules shall returne to their bodies againe. Soules are spirits, but spirits are inuisible, wherefore they cannot so be sÉene, vnlesse they take some outward shape vpon them. But it can neuer be proued by the testimony of holy scripture, that as good and euil Angels, so soules take som shapes vpon them. Besides this, it is most true that oftentimes the shapes and formes of them whose soules are not yet sundred from their bodies by death (as when one lieth vpon his death bed) are no lesse sÉene than theirs which are already dead. Therfore it is not necessary that we belÉeue y? ghostes which are sÉene, to be soules. By these things you vnderstand what is to be thought of the tale of Platina, Nauclerus, and others, which write that a certaine Bishop sawe Pope Benedict the eight (lately dead) in a solitary place sitting on a blacke horse, and being demaunded why he was so carried about with the blacke horse, he warned the Bishop that he should distribute the money which was giuen to the vse of the poore (but now wickedly kept to other purposes) vnto those poore folkes to whom of right it belonged. Other tales of like stampe are rife euery where.

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