Source.—Clarke Papers, Camden Society's Publications. Vol. i., p. 301. Putney, October 29, 1647.

At a Meeting of the Officers for calling upon God.

Part of the Debate on the Agreement of the People, First article, "That the people of England being at this day very unequally distributed by Counties, Cities and Boroughs for the election of their Deputies in Parliament, ought to be more indifferently proportioned according to the number of the inhabitants."

Col. Rainborough. Really I think that the poorest he that is in England hath a life to live as the greatest he; and therefore truly, Sir, I think it's clear that every man that is to live under a Government ought first by his own consent to put himself under that Government....

Commissary Ireton. Give me leave to tell you, that if you make this the rule I think you must fly for refuge to an absolute natural Right, and you must deny all Civil Right.... For my part I think it is no right at all. I think that no person hath a right to an interest or share in the disposing or determining of the affairs of the Kingdom, and in choosing those that shall determine what laws we shall be ruled by here, no person hath a right to this that hath not a permanent fixed interest in this Kingdom.... We talk of birthright. Truly by birthright there is thus much claim. Men may justly have by birthright, by their very being born in England, that we shall not seclude them out of England, that we shall not refuse to give them air and place and ground and the freedom of the highways and other things, to live amongst us.... That I think is due to a man by birth. But that by a man's being born here he shall have a share in that power that shall dispose of the lands here, and of all things here, I do not think it a sufficient ground. I am sure if we look upon ... that which is most radical and fundamental and which if you take away there is no man hath any land, any goods, any civil interest, that is this; that those that choose the representors for the making of laws by which this state and kingdom are to be governed, are the persons who taken together do comprehend the local interest of this kingdom: that is, the persons in whom all land lies, and those in Corporations in whom all trading lies....

Rainborough. Truly, Sir, I am of the same opinion I was; and am resolved to keep it till I know reason why I should not. I do think the main cause why Almighty God gave men reason, it was, that they should make use of that reason. Half a loaf is better than none if a man be an hungry, yet I think there is nothing that God hath given a man that any else can take from him. I do not find anything in the law of God, that a Lord shall choose 20 burgesses and a gentleman but two, and a poor man shall choose none. But I do find that all Englishmen must be subject to English laws, and I do verily believe that there is no man but will say that the foundation of all law lies in the people....

Ireton. I wish we may all consider of what right you will challenge, that all people should have right to elections. Is it by the right of nature? By that same right of nature by which you can say one man hath an equal right with another to the choosing of him that shall govern him—by the same right of nature, he hath an equal right in any goods he sees; meat, drink, clothes, to take and use them for his sustenance. He hath a freedom to the land, to exercise it, till it; he hath the same freedom to anything that anyone doth account himself to have any property in.... Since you cannot plead it by anything but the law of nature, I would fain have any man show me their bounds, where you will end, and why you should not take away all property?

Rainborough. I wish we were all true hearted, and that we did all carry ourselves with integrity. For my part, I think you do not only yourselves believe that we are inclining to anarchy, but you would make all men believe that. That there is property the Law of God says, else why hath God made that law, "Thou shalt not steal"? If I have no interest in the Kingdom I must suffer by all their laws, be they right or wrong. I am a poor man, therefore I must be oppressed....

Cromwell. I know nothing but this, that they that are the most yielding have the greatest reason; but really, Sir, this is not right as it should be. No man says you have a mind to anarchy, but the consequence of this rule tends to anarchy, must end in anarchy, for where is there any bound or limit set, if you take away this limit, that men that have no interest but the interest of breathing, shall have no voice in elections? Therefore I am confident on it that we should not be so hot one with another....

Rainborough. I deny that there is property, to a Lord, to a Gentleman, to any man more than another in the Kingdom of England. I would fain know what we have fought for. This is the old law of England, and that which enslaves the people of England, that they should be bound by laws in which they have no voice at all....

Mr. Sexby. We have engaged in this Kingdom and ventured our lives, and it was all for this: to recover our birthrights and privileges as Englishmen, and by the arguments used there is none. There are many thousands of us soldiers that have ventured our lives: we have had little property in the Kingdom as to our estates; yet we have had a birthright. It seems now, unless a man hath a fixed estate in this Kingdom, he hath no right in this kingdom. I wonder we were so much deceived. I shall tell you in a word my resolution. I am resolved to give my birthright to none. I do think the poor and meaner of this kingdom have been the means of the preservation of this kingdom....

Ireton. For my part, rather than I will make a disturbance to a good Constitution of a kingdom wherein I may live in godliness and honesty and peace and quietness, I will part with a great deal of my birthright. I will part with my own property rather than I will be the man that shall make a disturbance in the Kingdom for my property....

Rainborough. But I would fain know what the poor soldier hath fought for all this while? He hath fought to enslave himself, to give power to men of riches, men of estates, to make him a perpetual slave. We do find in all presses that go forth none must be pressed that are freehold men. When these Gentlemen fall out among themselves they shall press the poor scrubs to come and kill them.

Cromwell. I confess I am most dissatisfied with that I heard Mr. Sexby speak of any man here, because it did savour so much of will. But I desire that all of us may decline that, and if we meet here really to agree to that which is for the safety of the Kingdom, let us not spend so much time in such debates as these are. If we think to bring it to an issue this way I know our debates are endless, and I think if you do desire to bring this to a result it were well if we may but resolve upon a Committee. I say it again, if I cannot be satisfied to go so far as these Gentlemen ... I shall freely and willingly withdraw myself, and I hope to do it in such manner that the Army shall see that I shall by my withdrawing satisfy the interest of the Army, the public interest of the Kingdom, and those ends these men aim at.